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[Update: Joe sent this over this morning -
Apple Snob video from the Street
Starting yesterday (Feb 7, 2008), a recent discussion between Joe Grasso and myself has become lively and aggravatingly extensive. A transcript follows, with color commentary by Alan C. Carter and Daniel H. Kim:
Me - 12:37 pm - Yesterday [Referring to a wifi frame]
They should have the following already in these [digital photo] frames and I am shocked that they don't:
touchscreens, all of them
long lasting batteries
bluetooth
Mac-f@©king-compatibility
It figures that the only ones approaching the current state of technology are the only Mac-compatible ones, and that they're fucking expensive and marketed to the yuppies/old-pees: http://www.photovu.com/digital-frames/overview.php
All in all, the Kodak one works fine, looks nice, my folks were thrilled and we got it set up in one hour. And I can post pics to the Kodak Easyshare site and they show up on the frame in Illinois.
Joe - 1:14 pm - Yesterday1. fuck kodak and their proprietary easy share bullshit in their ear. also for polluting rochester NY for 25 years before laying everyone off.
2. fuck you kerry for even insinuating macs are ever on the forefront of any technical software development. great, accessible design, decent hardware, decent interfaces, TERRIBLE software development.
3. nice guess by me if the number was actually 317 cause the 300 was a random guess
4. hopefull by x mas there will be a good one that works with flikr or picasa- emailing photos is actually counterintuitive to how most people share photos macland- and it opens up your digital frame to get B1gGerr PEn15 spams
5. sometimes you just gotta wait for the cost to catch up with the cool . . . which will happen this november.
Me - 1:45 pm - YesterdayWho said anything about software development? I was talking about a third-party product. Mislabeling the selective class of software available for Mac OS as terrible software development is flippant and uninformed. Mac software developers are held to a higher standard; the shitty programmers are busy making platform crashing clusterfucks for Windouche and Linsux, and trying to make any case based on the unavailability of all those shitty programs and pointless games for Mac is pointless.
Tragically, there are a few competent software developers that hold to their self-destructive anti-Mac mantras and fail to gain enlightenment, which only is a cycle of Mac-haters perpetuating existence of an infinitesimal basis for Mac-hating, through no fault or mistake of Apple. They can't force developers to drop their ignorant stonewall stances, so they wait and release superior hardware with a superior operating system.
But who said anything about software development?
Who released the first multitouch screen consumer device?
Who pioneered an operating system that finally utilized a mouse?
Who has ever made a more efficient or stable OS for a PC than Apple?
Linus Torvalds while his mom gave him handjobs with maple syrup?
I don't know what club you have to join to make baseless statements like that and feel somehow vindicated, but I bet Bill Gates gets the membership dues.
Joe - 2:27 pm - Yesterdayhahhahahaha
amazing
there is no counter mac culture like all u mac fags hope there is. just one big gay group of turds who allow a corporation to define them as people and dictate what their culture is, all the while rights managing anything and everything with a business model of don't allow any open source or 3rd party development or allow our software to work
with anything other than something made by apple so they can milk their most loyal followers and take over the world.
the fact that u would get offended and have to run to starbucks wearing your nike+iPod shoe peripheral combination with both ipods and your macbook to connect back to your crusty itunes on your home imac
is proof enough.
dude and seriously ask ANY electrical engineer or computer programmer (Vic is a great example cause he is both) about the stability of macs or pcs vs linux machines. using the argument that no one uses linux so therefore mac is the best remaining option is also as stupid and uninformed as you hoped my statement was. Also ask someone who knows about computers- not just people who think they know like us- what the worst part of macs is. answer will be software. better yet, try to
run torrents and seed something correctly on any torrent software. I know the old mac has been brilliant at that. or try to download mac software on waffles. what is there 3 programs on there? or try running 3d modelling software on a mac- nice work there for the design community. all software development issues. and guess who can never
print to any network printers correctly at my work or access their mail properly? yep you guessed it, the old loud obnoxious, on their knees for jobs mac fags. and your canned response will be the same as theirs in your head right now. Ohh its a windows network. gaaaay. backed into a corner and gayyy. windows comps NEVER have probs on mac networks. again, software issues.
and just like microsoft, what do you think mac software development teams do? if you guessed have a special team dedicated to scouring the webernet for open source, usually linux based communities to steal source code for cool new features and so called "developments," you are correct.
So anyway the point is this. I dont have a boner for PCs. Macs simply can not do half of the things I need it to do as a product
designer. so therefore i use the thing that works and i understand. thats the difference. mac users are so fucking in love with their crummy product that they think anyone who doesnt use one is "on the other side" and is out to get their amazing community of artists and musicians.
you are so gay for macs you moved in with a guy NAMED MAC.
eat my dick. its not P.C.
love and kisses
Joe
i almost forgot
"Mac software developers are held to a higher standard; the shitty programmers are busy making platform crashing clusterfucks for Windouche and Linsux, and trying to make any case based on the unavailability of all those shitty programs and pointless games for Mac is pointless."
that could win stupid, misinformed, what was your word, flippant? comment of the year and possibly the worst rationalization i have ever heard in my life. literally the worst. is 4th grade argument logic discussed on your apple.com forums?
dont foget to put a mac sticker on your segway, liberace, so all the other shit-stickers out there can sniff you out as one of their own.
pity you just cooled down now you gotta go get upset again.
just think of jeff goldblum talking slowly, soflty, and slightly befuddled to you about how everyone is doing the emails and talking about the emails and how do you get the emails? just take out your imac and plug it in and tada! we gotcha. also you get to use the emails.
Dan - 9:15 am - Todaynow that is something i can agree with...
plus their slanderous ad campaign using that loser from dodgeball as their spokesperson makes anyone who doesn't have a mac a corporate stiff. Macs are just useless pieces of flare that are nothing more than an accessory to match a wannabe lifestyle. the nazis also had pieces of flare that they made the jews wear....
Me - 3:18 pm - YesterdayNice rant. When you have an ounce of support or authority behind any of your bald assertions I'd like to hear them. Ask anyone? Who? The people that agree with you?
Mac software is available for PC and Linux chodes are actively trying to figure out how to run it on their open soggy boxes.
Furthermore, the windows network is clearly the problem if the mac network allows anyone to print. Comcast blocks torrents and they're in court right now, apples have nothing to do with that. Azureus is dual platform. I downloaded protools the other day from waffles. You know what they do with that: make most hip hop. In addition to reason and ableton live, CS3, and etc.
If mac developers are so busy scouring the web for Linux programmers' progress, what features have appeared in Linux OS then later in mac OS? Now ask yourself the opposite question.
You can try to make your point by calling macs gay, but who would listen to that? Who are you going to convince without a shred of proof and only a 50 gallon barrel of imaginary shit to sling?
Touching my iPod and thinking about you,
Kerry
http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/17/survey-finds-apple-users-have-sense-of-superiority-no-wait-h/comments/9897629/
There's lots of people in this blindfolded shit-grenade lobbing contest. Most of them know more about computers than me.
Alan - 4:43 pm - YesterdayYAHHHH TRICK YAA
yall finsta b bustin up fo shizo. allz hatin bout itty itty bitty azz pics bein up n a tiny azz bitch frame. I gotz ones of dem bitches, ITS IS BEIN SCREENS IN YO WHIP BEEICHES. Flossin collard park frontin proper on dem deuce deuces, dats wright yo, my fizuckin whizzels can buy foties yo, day ova 21!! Crusin on chrome i b peepin at screens propa up in da whip. Ya know, showin pics de la bitchez on da regular. If'in u finsta bump pic frames propa flava flav style, strap dat shizit on yo neck nigga. Stride up n da club wit a pic of dem hoez all shaftmasterin all up on yous. Its playa magick, dem bitchez aint shit but hoez n tricks, n wit a pic of dem up on yo nutz wile suckin yo dik, (propa to da Doggfather) itz called a bitchin ass picksha produca, on my nizeck. HOLLA!
where my bitchez,
Yo, wen i finsta sip da sizzurp all up in da clizub, i finsta place lady head nobs on da knob fo propa. Den my hed finsta nod propa, to the bumpin bass yo. Most dem good fuckas be rockin da stage wit dem fruit comps yo, u know da apple. Dey sick on da beatz, just like hittin yo tricks wit a tube sock of full of apples, cant be bruzin dem hoes. But on da proper, da light show be showin dem hoez hows ta get low on da floor, n da software fo dat shit bumps on da PC like yo grandmamma bumpz on da regular.
flip mode squad, raw deluxe
fat.
Joe - 8:56 am - Todayalan that was fantastic. it took 20 minutes for me to read, but it was well worth it.
Kerry yes many of my claims are trumped up and out of context- but thats how i roll nigga. when i wrote the original fuck you about software development it was a conscious effort to fire you up about your hipster mac. and it worked well based on the wonderful discourse we have had. you have had several biased, unfounded claims as well in your pointed arguments.
as far as started as open source and ended up gobbled up by apple, here are some of the ones you take for granted . . .started as open source shareware and freeware, apple liked em, so just copied em in to the interface or hired the little guy who wrote it- none were developed by the elite team of software developers who are held to the higher standard.
"The contribution of thousands of users has been largely overlooked. Some standard features in most computer interfaces -– user configurable menus, flexible open/save dialog boxes, tear-off menus -– were dreamed up by people working in bedrooms or back offices. A shareware program called WindowShade introduced collapsible windows to the Mac. The system extension allowed users to collapse open windows with a click of the mouse. Other tweaks include freeware programs that displayed a spinning wristwatch when the system was busy (OS X features a spinning windmill) and the bulging trash can to indicate files waiting to be deleted. Again, both are now standard on Mac and Windows. Apple provided a great framework for innovation: an open and flexible operating system that allowed smaller, third-party developers to tweak and polish the interface"
reread that last sentence again captain DRM. seems as if throughout the 80s and 90s apple was very open to allowing third party software developers build the foundation for what they take full credit for these days- their wonderful interface. (i am not being sarcastic here it is the best part of the mac experience and lifestyle). hiring the exact same "shitty programmers [that] are busy making platform crashing clusterfucks for Windouche and Linsux" in fact, the whole weird rocky relationship between apple and microsoft started because in the 80s apple knew they had NO chance of success without microsoft's software development capabilities. I am not saying bill gates did not make (steal) a shittier version of the os he was given
to develop software for . . . but I am saying that software development throughout apple's history has classically been by small
third party development firms- EXACTLY the same types of places you claim are the reason for windows and linux platforms crashing and whatnot.
and apple didnt invent the mouse. or the gooooeeeeey. xerox parc developed those things in the 70s. apple saw them and figured this was something they could SELL. and make huge money on. this all goes back to the same point as before. bill gates is evil. everyone knows that. picture a hipster prick in portland having a microsoft patch on their hemp rucksack or a microsoft bumper sticker on their prius. and heres the aha. steve jobs is just as much of a money grubbing evil empire turd fuck as bill gates. the difference is he has better marketing. one could argue the best marketing campaign of the 20th
century. one that makes people who are wannabe lifestyle posers buy into lifestyle choices because a company tells them its cool. Artists and musicians DO use apple computers. but so do turds who are neither because they THINK its part of that lifestyle. which it isnt. which is exactly the point u tried to make. Oh joe u like hip hop and hip hop producers use macs so macs are cool. we could go through a list of softwares that are on pcs and macs and different professions which use either. u also brought up adobe, which last time i checked was not a mac company and the CS suite runs just as fast if not faster on my pc from 8 years ago as it would on your mac (if you paid 800 bucks for it sucka) same goes for the whole macromedia (now adobe) suite as well) there are programs that work on one better than the other sometimes. in mine and macs case, the most integral software to us and our business is cad software which apple has been lacking in since logo. why the bias toward 2d and motion graphics designers from a company supposedly so "industrial design" forward? are we not bohemian enough to fit the lifestyle?
steve jobs isnt interested in making peoples lives easier. or making the world a better place. or even remotely in the fake culture he has been creating since he came back to mac after his post-lisa-failure hiatus. he cares about the benjamins and the point is APPLE IS AS EVIL AS MICROSOFT just with a dumber user base who thinks apple is hip and cool and not the evil money grubbing corporation that they actually are. think about that before you slap that apple sticker on some other random thing you own. (maybe your frisbee or your fedora)
also, aint it about time apple comes out with a super sleek jon ive designed easy to use emotionally sensual yet extremely proprietary picture frame that only uses iPhoto and won't allow anyone to use it without a mac.com email address? they could make billions and convert 2.3 percent more americans into their bogus culture.
Joe
p.s. i dont hate macs. i hate smug mac users (which is what, 70% of the mac fan club with you on the board of directors?). they are almost as bad as smug pious fucks whose god is better than everyone elses god cause some other idiot told them so.
which brings us to discussion #2: your gods can suck my dick.
Dan - 9:52 am - Todayword.
alan- that was one of the best email responses so far. i tried to read it to a hip hop beat...it works. flip mode, nigga!
Apple capitalized on the new ultra-image conscious demographic...i mean look at ads these days...most of them straight out tell you that unless you are using their product, you are not a stylish individual. before this new ad campaign for apple, i never even considered where my "loyalties" lie regarding computers...but since THEY were the ones to bring it up, i guess i won't lose sleep over deciding whether or not i am qualified to be a mac user. these are just tools, and until i see a big ass check from apple or microsoft for promoting their shit, i will continue to not care...but if i were to choose, PCs just fit me better. I've used macs quite a bit and at the end of the day, PCs are just better to use overall because its easier for me to fix, use, and maintain. i'm not gonna go buy a new laptop or computer that looks like a 60s flying car concept every two years...and you wanna talk about being a socially conscious company? where do all the computers that people chuck after they've got their two years of usage go? they go and pollute the FUCK out of the environment because computers are not biodegradable by any means- the disposal of computer components is a long, expensive, and hazardous process and by apple constantly introducing new products the old products are being disposed (most of the time they usually just throw it out with the rest of the trash) and essentially telling their consumers that they need to get the new version because you have to keep up with the fashionable housing(of course). At least with PCs, you're not buying a new machine every couple years. they are modular(which gives Mr.McMillan a hard-on). i mean...come on, kerry...how many different macs have you had in the same time that i've had one PC(which by the way was only one computer throughout the tenure of our friendship)? we can argue about user interface, software, and everything else forever, but the fact remains that Apple is just a wasteful company that continuously produces waste, but of course they're not gonna say anything about that because that would be completely contradict the "image" that apple wants to have. Of course the other companies are producing at a similar rate as apple is, but they actually have recycling and refurbishing centers for PCs so they aren't being wasted...Macs are as useless once they are outdated without a chance to refurbish or recycle....
think about it....
Me - 4:26 pm - TodayDudes,
I for one didn't fall for Apple as a lifestyle change. I used Macs as a child, as a high school student, as a college student, and now as a law student. The fact that they have undertaken an enormous marketing scheme that has sheephooked a whole segment of identity-void consumer/posers looking for some way to like technology does not affect the reason I have used Macs: they work better, for me and for most everyday computer users in the world. Yes those people could be using an 8 year old PC with a nuclear cooling tower heatsink and outboard motor powering the windtunnel fan apparatus, running at 4.5 gigawatts and firing carcinogenic gamma waves into the flesh of all humans within a 25 foot radius, just to do the emails and the web browsing and the words processing. Or they could use something reliable and easy to understand, something designed for the technologically-challenged cattle that make up most of society.
Technology is at once the source and mecca of societal change. It is frightening to those who are not savvy, to those who don't spend sufficient time to stay up on it, and yet it does the world and the people in it a huge amount of good. I heard something the other day about Iowa being able to produce enough food to feed the world with current agricultural technology. That's fucking incredible. And if lots of people had not embraced technology and worked to improve it, that would not have been possible, along with most other things we take for granted in our consumerism-driven lifestyles. What is evil about helping the masses to use and understand technology a little better? Sure profits are made, but somebody's got to help link up the average Joe with the incredibly complex level of technology that is floating around above our heads watching us with invisible secret hidden cameras when we do it. Success does not breed evil. Communication does not breed evil. Ignorance does, ignorance and close-mindedness.
I'm sorry that Apple has found support for its efforts to sell computers that do not scare the weak-minded everyday bloke in the puffy, proud brand-conscious segment of society. I would be upset and surprised if you honestly want to lump me in with them, as evil and loathsome as you make them out to be. They're just kids that like cool toys, just like us after all. What's so wrong with that?
On a more direct note, I actually remember downloading WindowShade and thinking it was stupid and pointless to collapse a window into its title bar by double clicking on it. I never used it, it was a stupid idea that didn't survive, now they minimize into the dock. The ticking watch or pinwheel is one of the banes of our existence, all those countless seconds sitting uncertain of when the computer will stop thinking, not able to do anything else because it could stop ticking at any SECOND! Bad idea, clearly. Instead, program an OS that does lots of work behind the scenes to minimize the need for the demon watch; that was what Apple spent their time doing, the important part. Oh boy, my trash can is bulging!
Your examples show that Apple has allowed a lot of mediocre programmers to make a living filling in the gaps. In any castle, there will be cracks in the mortar, and many hands will be needed to build it. But the architect plays the most important role. Without him, the pieces could assemble into a ghastly abomination like Windows ME or Vista or Ubuntu or MS-DOS. Apple and Microsoft both got the idea for a GUI from Xerox. Apple made one that worked and fostered the PC revolution. Microsoft made Windows 1.0 and people preferred DOS. DOS, for Christ's sake. Ghastly.
So the crash programmers have Apple to thank for corralling them into making useful improvements and paying them so they could feed their families. Lots of Microsoft and Sun employees do too, they just had worse architects designing places for their bricks.
You'll note I said "Who pioneered an operating system that finally utilized a mouse?".
This question goes unanswered, "Who has ever made a more efficient or stable OS for a PC than Apple?"
I get that you don't like how successful their marketing was, and that they convince people to pay for their music instead of steal it like us. It's too bad that the record companies turned music into a commodity in the first place. If they hadn't, we wouldn't have as many thousands of brilliant musicians striving to make beautiful music, thinking that they can make a living doing it. Capitalism is a tradeoff, selling out gives people something to buy.
I agree that DRM is an inefficient and incomplete solution to the modern music industry conundrum, but what's a better solution? imeem.com? amazon.com? Musicians will not release music if they do not make enough money to live. How can we best channel people's disposable entertainment dollars to the artists that make the art they like, especially when many of those artists live a thousand miles from most of their audience? A lot of people are trying to figure this out. It will just take a while for music to devolve from a commodity back into a performance experience.
I hope people like us are helping it by pirating all the good tunes we can get our hands on. For my own peace of mind, I spread that music around as much as people will let me, I try to turn people on to bands that they would like without me telling them it's good music.
iTunes and amazon allow the flocks of hopelessly tasteless music fans to quickly find and pay those artists they like, no matter where they're from. Record companies still take a huge bite out of the transaction with the licensing deals they have set up with song-by-song online sellers. At least it's not Rhapsody where there is no connection between what people listen to and how much the artists get paid. By the way, I hope you're just ignoring this when you blame Apple for DRM: http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/30/itunes-plus-and-emis-drm-free-music-hands-on/
That's a step in the right direction, something that it took a while to convince only one of the big record companies was viable and profitable. We're all interested in ourselves. Otherwise we wouldn't know what torrents are. Apple makes money in the same game that we play for "free" downloaded music on waffles and piratebay. What do you think the time we've spent downloading music would cost us, measured per song? I have >30,000 songs. I've spent probably an hour a day for the past 12 years downloading music, if not more. 12*365=4,380 hours*$20/hour=$87,600/30,000 songs (although I lost a 30GB drive full once) = $2.92/song. iTunes is a steal at $1.29 for near-perfect quality DRM-free music. If only the selection were better. Damn the record companies and smaller labels for holding out on the music industry revolution that needs to happen.
This doesn't need to be an argument, or some good vs. evil battle (which is frankly a shocking approach for an atheist to take). Most Windows users are probably the dumber user base because they waste a lot of time trying to make an inferior system work for them. I did for three years from 1998-2001, but realized that I don't enjoy missing .dll files or the red circle with a white X or the blue screen of death. I enjoy my computer working for me. If that means contributing money to a company that is good at convincing people that their superior product (personal computers for home users) is a little more superior than it actually is, then I just have to live with that. On the other hand, the only glitch I've had with my computer in the past span of time I can remember is that Firefox crashes constantly and Comcast throws quicksand in my torrent mine. I use Safari instead. You guys seen any error messages recently?
In all fairness, I don't think you guys are dumb for using Windows XP. We could all make it work for us, we are competent and relatively technologically-informed people. I feel bad for the people that can't, and would not inflict Windows on them. Mac would be much easier for them to use. So why not contribute to that preferred possibility?
Jeeps are easier to take apart than most vehicles I've ever worked on. Most people cannot perform car maintenance well. Hondas and Nissans can be a pain in the ass to work on. Most people should buy Hondas and Nissans because they work better and don't need to be taken apart as often. I was thrilled with my Jeep though, and it can do some specialized things better than a Honda, like off-road (CAD) and park in tight spots with its sweet turning radius (3-D modelling) and accelerating from 0-30 mph (I once beat a new Corvette in a drag, but only to 45 mph/3rd gear). But it does have a higher chance of rolling over in a crash (no need to explain the analogy here). Luckily my highway crash did not result in a rollover, whether that is attributable to my input, or to circumstances outside my control.
My point is, some Mac users are smug, I don't like smug people either. Some PC users are violently insulting and make personal attacks on Mac users instead of using reason or authority to support their assertion that their computing preference is not inferior. Nobody puts baby in a corner...
I'm finished with this discussion. Make all the uninformed statements you care to after the beep.
I wish this wasn't as big of a sticking point with us but I'd like to figure out the root of it, instead of vilifying companies and making unfounded claims. Research helps, but not being unnecessarily combative does too.
I love you,
Kerry
P.S. To Dan, I still have my original iBook. Actually I gave it to Mac (McMillan) to use after replacing its hard drive over Christmas break. What ever happened to the Gen. 1 iPod I gave you, you ungrateful fuck? You can get a discount on a new one if you turn it in to Apple.
Apple - Environment - Recycle
AlterNet: Environment: E-Waste and iWoes
Apple 2.0: Apple Mac Sales Up 26.2% in Q2, Outpacing Industry's 7.2%
Company Detail
My iMac uses less power than a 100W light bulb. My iBook has needed a new battery, power supply and hard drive in 6+ years. That's it. How many components, PCI cards, etc. have your towers chewed through? Making sustainable products will save waste. Making modular products will encourage swapping out and generate waste and maintenance costs. Making inefficient/inferior products simply is a waste.
Hopefully we can bury this hatchet wound.
And that's where the great Apple-hate debate lies for now. To be continued, I'm sure...
